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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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Importing data from online resources like IMDB |
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Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | Seems to me imdb does a lot on purpose too. I am thinking Role names that the cast plays. They will purposely increase the role played explaining what they feel the role should be instead of using what is in the credits. To me this makes imdb very inaccurate. And purposely so. This is not mistakes. This must be sabotage too then?
Also while imdb has done better... there is still many times when the name don't have the credited as name. Just the main name they use for linking. More inaccuracy. And another one I believe is done on purpose because people don't want to bother.
So while I don't have any delusion that our database is perfect I also don't have any delusion that imdb is any better... I personally don't even think it is as good. At least going by my collection. | | | Pete |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,747 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote: Quoting Kathy:
Quote: Profiler may have a lot of mistakes but so does IMDb or any other database for that matter. I have yet to come across any database that is perfect. Nobody is perfect, and of course mistakes can happen everywhere. Most mistakes are made unvoluntarily : People try to do their best, and make mistakes, OK.
The problem with dvdprofiler is that mistakes are made voluntarily, and requested by rules. When the correct name is MELANIE LAURENT = Mélanie Laurent, and rules ask to enter Melanie Laurent, rules ask to enter voluntarily wrong information. Invelos, as I can know, is the only database that asks to create errors. I do not call that mistakes, I call that sabotage. And the result cannot be used by anybody wanting correct linking. Give it up. You'll never convince them with their convenient 26 letter alphabet that there are more complicated languages out there. Just try to transcribe LEANDER HAUSSMANN to Leander Haußmann. Ironically people do it all the time when it's the title, citing the "Check capitalization of the title" rule but suddenly when it's the crew section this is a no-go area. | | | Karsten DVD Collectors Online
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,747 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: Seems to me imdb does a lot on purpose too. I am thinking Role names that the cast plays. They will purposely increase the role played explaining what they feel the role should be instead of using what is in the credits. To me this makes imdb very inaccurate. And purposely so. This is not mistakes. This must be sabotage too then?
Also while imdb has done better... there is still many times when the name don't have the credited as name. Just the main name they use for linking. More inaccuracy. And another one I believe is done on purpose because people don't want to bother.
So while I don't have any delusion that our database is perfect I also don't have any delusion that imdb is any better... I personally don't even think it is as good. At least going by my collection. I think it's a matter of different priorities. People contributing to DVDP seem to be anal about typing down end credits just for the sake of typing end credits. They are about carbon copy accuracy. Usefulness doesn't seem to matter at all. IMDb on the other hand values the other thing: Usefulness. To them it's not that important when in her life Courteney Cox was credited as Courteney Cox or as Courteney Cox Arquette, as long as her credits in Cougar Town, Friends and Masters of the Universe properly link and you can see all of them on her Filmography list. They also seem to care less about if William Shatner was "Kirk", "Captain Kirk" or "James T. Kirk" in that Star Trek movie as long as it's clear that he sat on the middle seat on the bridge. And to be perfectly honest I tend to lean more to their side of the argument than DVDP's. I'd rather have Mario Girotti and Terence Hill link automatically without long investigations into common names (and multiple profile editings!) than knowing that Matthew Broderick was credited as just "David" instead of "David Lightman" in WarGames. | | | Karsten DVD Collectors Online
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | And I understand all that. I personally am on the opposite side. I don't mind doing the work to make the linking we have work (even if I would prefer a different system)... but to me it is important to know the correct role (anything other then in the credits is literally wrong and I am a very literal person). And to know exactly how the cast and crew is credited. Which is why I have such a dislike of imdb.
But none of this is my point. My point is that depending on how it is looked at imdb is far from perfect. (in my opinion it is barely decent) That it is just as bad as our database... if not worse... depending on your collection. | | | Pete |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | I follow the rules but I am of the same mind set as Yves and Karsten as far as the linking system is concerned.
This is one area that I believe should have been dealt with long ago and I can not understand why invelos does not take care of it once and for all.
I do a lot of work contributing to the database but, except in very rare cases, I refuse to waste my time on birth years, common names and the like.
I think most of the community feels the same way since I only see a handful of people actually spending their time trying to make linking work. | | | Last edited: by Kathy |
| Registered: March 31, 2007 | Posts: 662 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: ...but to me it is important to know the correct role (anything other then in the credits is literally wrong and I am a very literal person). And to know exactly how the cast and crew is credited... But in crew section you're not that literal, are you? Screenwriter, Screenplay, Teleplay will all be Screenwriter. That's OK for you or do you type the real crew info into your local database? And that's not even the worst one: Chief Makeup Artist, Department Head, Make-Up Artist, Head Make-Up Artist, Key Make-Up, Key Make-Up Artist, Key Makeup Artist & Hairstylist, Lead Makeup Artist, Make-up, Makeup and Hair Designer, Makeup Artist, Make-Up Designer, Makeup Artist & Hair to [Cast Name], Makeup for [Cast Name] will all get entered as Make-up Artist. That's 14 different job-names. Counting in that each of that could be "Supervising" that'll give a total of 28... While a role-name can be proven in some cases by watching the movie against the credits*, in crew-section job-names are proven wrong by credits... *I know that IMDb data often cannot be proven that way, so role-names will be still wrong in such cases. | | | |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 17,334 |
| Posted: | | | | Actually I am the type of person that don't care about the crew at all. I was happy the way profiler was when I first joined back in the Invelos days where there was only a spot or two for Director only. | | | Pete |
| Registered: June 15, 2012 | Posts: 428 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote: I follow the rules but I am of the same mind set as Yves and Karsten as far as the linking system is concerned.
This is one area that I believe should have been dealt with long ago and I can not understand why invelos does not take care of it once and for all.
I do a lot of work contributing to the database but, except in very rare cases, I refuse to waste my time on birth years, common names and the like.
I think most of the community feels the same way since I only see a handful of people actually spending their time trying to make linking work. Agree completely, confuses the hell out of me. And I hate birth years, they always screw up my contribs. If I can get a list to match the end credits, that seems good to me. |
| Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,730 |
| Posted: | | | | Ohh, it's linking again ...
Once more with feeling: The linking in our database doesn't work because some of us seem to think that IMDb is soooo much better and therefore contribute incompatible (non-linking) IMDb-data (and or other Third Party material) to our database.
The mixture created (and in fact still creates) a mess that is only very hard to clean up (Compare the mass of "Common Name"-threads that try to determine the REAL most credited variant by eliminating those IMDb entries of name variants that in not only a few cases are never used in the actual credits).
But if the database was in a clean state the "Common Name"-system is as good as any other to create links between naming-variants of the same person.
De-Linking (Same name but different persons) now is something completely different, it has been shown already that the BY-system is (hmm) not exactly the best of all possible systems to achieve this. Asking the community, the suggestions to solve this problem have a bandwidth from sub-optimum to overly complicated (12 digit identifier).
Up to now no one has shown a satisfactory, practicable (and working) solution. And it's not that it hasn't been tried, but as usual too many cooks will always spoil the pudding.
Obviously Invelos considers this strange mixture of online and strictly local distinguisher data as sufficient and after all it is their database we are working on. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up! But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 | | | Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,203 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting StaNDarD: Quote: But in crew section you're not that literal, are you? Screenwriter, Screenplay, Teleplay will all be Screenwriter. That's OK for you or do you type the real crew info into your local database? Actually, we were given the custom role field because it wasn't OK with some of us. When I have the time to do a full audit, I do type the real crew info into my local database...and I am not the only one. Quite a few people do the same. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 15, 2007 | Posts: 1,982 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
When I have the time to do a full audit, I do type the real crew info into my local database...and I am not the only one. Quite a few people do the same. This is what I do, except that always do full audit for my database, with the Visual Effects free for all category because visual effects, digital effects, optical effects, special effets, mechanical effects or CGI effects aren't the same thing for me. I do the same also in the sound area because I feel the sound effects editors, the dialogue editors, the foley editors and the ADR editors are as important than the sound editors are (I have the same feeling with the different sound mixers distinctions). |
| Registered: March 31, 2007 | Posts: 662 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote: Quoting StaNDarD:
Quote: But in crew section you're not that literal, are you? Screenwriter, Screenplay, Teleplay will all be Screenwriter. That's OK for you or do you type the real crew info into your local database? Actually, we were given the custom role field because it wasn't OK with some of us. When I have the time to do a full audit, I do type the real crew info into my local database...and I am not the only one. Quite a few people do the same. Well, that's near perfect. 100% perfect would be, if you could get this data into the online database. So my real question is: why is it good enough to enter crew as 'well that person's done some kind of or anything like <put in job-name here>', while you have to enter cast with literal role-names? Don't get me wrong, I'm not interesting in changing the cast-part, I'm fine with this - but in that case it's completely absurd to do the crew-part like it has to be done right now. I see the use in splitting crew into departments (like direction, writing...) but not in grouping them in generalized job descriptions. But I'm totally off-topic, that has nothing to do with getting IMDb data at all... | | | | | | Last edited: by StaNDarD |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,203 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting StaNDarD: Quote: Well, that's near perfect. 100% perfect would be, if you could get this data into the online database.
So my real question is: why is it good enough to enter crew as 'well that person's done some kind of or anything like <put in job-name here>', while you have to enter cast with literal role-names?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not interesting in changing the cast-part, I'm fine with this - but in that case it's completely absurd to do the crew-part like it has to be done right now.
I see the use in splitting crew into departments (like direction, writing...) but not in grouping them in generalized job descriptions. Preaching to the choir. I have suggested, more than once, that we keep the general categories AND allow the uploading of the custom role field...not to be confused with the custom crew section. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,747 |
| Posted: | | | | BTW: I'm not advocating to actually use IMDb data in DVDP for a horrendous fee*: I'm just saying why I prefer IMDb data over DVDP data - because it's more useful to me personally, more useful for what I want to achive with my DVD database.
*I strongly dislike such systems in general: First you let your users do all the work (and IMDb is a user-contributed database just as DVDP is) and then you claim all the data THEY entered as YOURS and ask for fees when someone else wants to use data that you got for free. | | | Karsten DVD Collectors Online
| | | Last edited: by DJ Doena |
| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 4,479 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: Seems to me imdb does a lot on purpose too. I am thinking Role names that the cast plays. They will purposely increase the role played explaining what they feel the role should be instead of using what is in the credits. To me this makes imdb very inaccurate. And purposely so. This is not mistakes. This must be sabotage too then? This is very different. There is no database function with roles (sorting, filtering, searching, linking) so it is not necessary to have a specific form. And IMDb roles are not errors, they are just "different" : Errol Flynn may be Robin, Robin Hood or Robin of Locksley, all those roles are correct and preserve database functions. But one error with the name, and you loose all functions. Different forms for correct roles are acceptable. Names that do not exist are not. | | | Images from movies |
| Registered: March 31, 2007 | Posts: 662 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote: Seems to me imdb does a lot on purpose too. I am thinking Role names that the cast plays. They will purposely increase the role played explaining what they feel the role should be instead of using what is in the credits. That's not totally true. IMDb rules are quite close to Invelos rules. Quote: Peoples names:
General Rule: The primary name for a person in the IMDb is the one by which they are most often credited.
* John Wayne was once credited as Duke Morrison, and even though that's closer to his birth name of Marion Michael Morrison, his primary name in the database is John Wayne. * We make an exception to the rule if we have reason to believe someone will be using a different name for all future credits. For example, if they changed their name because of marriage or have registered a new professional name with the relevant guild. * Such changes are made only for people with active careers. In the past, we required at least one onscreen credit with the new name; while that is still preferable, it is no longer a strict requirement.
Character names:
Wherever possible, we list character names as they appear in the on-screen credits. We make occasional exceptions when character names are not listed on-screen or when the character descriptions in the end titles include spoilers, but as a rule we try to stick to credits as closely as possible. If you don't know what is the on-screen character name or one isn't listed, here are some guidelines to help with character name submissions and corrections:
* Please omit redundant information/irrelevant details: Ralph Fiennes' character in Red Dragon is called Francis Dolarhyde, and that's how he's listed in the credits. It's simply overkill to have him listed as "Francis Dolarhyde/The Tooth Fairy/The Red Dragon" even though those are factually correct descriptions. * Names are usually enough and character name shouldn't be descriptive, unless absolutely necessary to identify the actor (i.e., if a role doesn't have a name, someone may be identified as "Man in Van" or "Woman with Umbrella"). * Avoid extra embellishments/repetitions/nicknames unless they are part of the credited character name: it's enough to list Robert Patrick as John Doggett in the "X-Files" TV series, instead of "Special Agent Jonathan Jay 'John' Doggett"; Jeri Ryan played Seven of Nine on "Star Trek: Voyager", not "Seven of Nine, Tertiary Adjunct of Unimatrix 01, aka Annika Hansen"; Edward Norton played Will Graham in Red Dragon, not "William Graham" or "Special Agent Graham" or "FBI Special Agent William 'Will' Graham"; Matt LeBlanc plays Joey Tribbiani in "Friends", not "Joseph 'Joey' Francis Tribbiani". * If an actor is listed more than once in the credits for playing multiple roles, list them once in the position of their first appearance (see cast orders), and separate the other roles in the character field with slashes, e.g., Role1/Role2/Role3 (This refers to the actor's first appearance in the cast list rather than the appearance order of the multiple characters). Please do not put spaces either side of the slashes. * Whether the extra info is accurate or not doesn't matter - Robert Englund's character in the Nightmare on Elm Street films is known as Freddy Kruger, not Frederick Kruger or Frederick 'Freddy' Kruger, even though Freddy is probably the diminutive form for Frederick. So in general the rules are quite the same, but IMDb allows a few exceptions. The big problem on IMDb is, that people don't respect the rules in a more regular way than they do here. | | | | | | Last edited: by StaNDarD |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Desktop Feature Requests |
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